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Will there ever be a MAC version? (Read 1051 times)
petes
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Will there ever be a MAC version?
on: Mar 26th, 2007, 4:40am
 

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It's been a long time since i checked this site..seems like a MAC version isn't going to see daylight undecided
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #1 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 6:18pm
 

The digital monk

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I know it's slow going, but over the weekend I had a couple of hopeful experiences:
 
1. I saw TAFA running unmodified (except that I had to remove an EXE packer that I use) on Wine on Linux.  There were some issues with OpenGL overlaying the button bar, and there may be some performance issues with audio, but this isn't the way I'd actually try a Linux version.  I'm looking into using Winelib to recompile TAFA as a native Linux ELF executable, at which point I can wedge in pieces that need to behave differently for Linux.  (Stick with me, this does actually apply to the Mac  Wink )
 
2. Though my attempts with Darwinelib (Winelib for Darwin/Mac OS X) have met with failure at trivial points, I've seen posts from another user with a similar problem who did get compilation to work.  Darwinelib is nearly up-to-date with the main Winelib code source, so if I can build a Linux build, it seems reasonable I can go through the same process to make a Mac OS X version.  And since it's a recompile, it'll be a universal (PPC or x86) build at full speed.  Also, with any luck, the GCC 4.0 autovectorizing optimizer will be able to give Mac users faster performance (at high subdivision, profiler programs claim that about 80% of TAFA's time is spent on vector addition, so an auto-vectorizer should be able to make use of Altivec/SSE2 instructions to run 2-3 times faster)
 
The path I had started down was to write my own mini-Darwinelib, but if I can piggyback on the last decade's worth of work, this'll go MUCH faster.  Winelib already supports the Platform SDK, GDI, OpenGL, DirectInput, and DirectSound, which is the entire set of Windows APIs that I use.  I remain hopeful, but do apologize for the slow progress.
 
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #2 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 6:20pm
 

The digital monk

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For what it's worth, the last time I went by winehq.com, their sample screenshot was of LightWave running on Wine.  Obviously, that was unmodified LW running on x86 Linux, but it shows that the API support is there, and that's all I need.  Keep your fingers crossed!
 
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #3 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 7:08pm
 

The digital monk

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There is one scary issue -- Wine bug # 2398 (I think).
 
Back in '05, they completely rewrote their subwindow handling, and that has created a problem where OpenGL rendering always occurs to the top level window and overwrites menus/buttons in that window.  If I were going to try to release Windows-TAFA and just telling users to use Wine, that would be a problem -- I'd be subject to whatever level of support they had at the time.
 
Fortunately, I intend to use Winelib for porting, and that gives me an option.  Slightly ugly during window resizing/moving, but a workable temporary solution until they get this hammered out (and they do appear to be working on it reasonably seriously).
 
I only have one real OpenGL viewport -- the one in the main view window.  That window is created as a subwindow (child window) of the main view window.  I can "simply" change it into a borderless top level window, at which point the OpenGL part will be fine.  I'll have to sort out some depth sorting issues between it and the main view window, and when you resize/move the main view window you'll probably get some jittering as the OpenGL window lags behind (in the worst case, I'll have to rely on a timer to notice that the main view window changed and move the OpenGL window appropriately).  None of this will affect normal usage, once you've got your windows where you want them, though.  So I think I can cover this problem, and if/when they get OpenGL child windows working properly, I can switch back to my current logic pretty easily.
 
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #4 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 7:13pm
 

The digital monk

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Oooh, ooh, ooh!
 
If it wouldn't drive my current users crazy, I could separate the menu/toolbar window out into a separate window, and just let the OpenGL window be a normal top level window (I'm talking now about doing this even to the Windows version).  It's always been a little bit odd that the control menu and toolbar were permanently attached to the main view window, while other windows could be moved and positioned wherever you wanted them.  If I made this change, you could move the menu/toolbar window wherever felt best to you, and the Mac OS X version would probably use the normal menu bar, with a separate floating tool palette.  Actually, that might not be a bad idea in general either -- a menu window AND a toolbar window.  I'll have to be careful of the extra space taken up by window borders and decoration, but it would let you put the pieces where you wanted 'em.
 
Thoughts?
 
(Of course, then I'd have to redo all my screenshots in the manual  Tongue )
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petes
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #5 on: Nov 29th, 2008, 8:38pm
 

I love TAFA!

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Hey Mac,
 
I pretty much thought that a MAC version was a dead issue so I haven't been checking back. I imagine my assumptions are right..but I'll keep checking back one in a while, just in case!
 
As far as your window space question went...I'd ba happy with anything that works!
 
Pete
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FelixCat
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #6 on: Dec 19th, 2008, 10:02pm
 

I love TAFA!

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Hi, Mac, Pete...
Yeah, i think too that the MAC (no Mac) Tafa is dead in the water, sadly. Mac (no MAC) find some really big problems with the porting and has no time to continue.
Sad.
Well, Merry Cristmass BTW!
FelixCat
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jwiede
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #7 on: Sep 11th, 2009, 12:15am
 

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Really?  It sounded like Mac was well on the way with Darwinelib.  However, since there still isn't one available, it does seem pretty disheartening.
 
A Mac UB version of TAFA would probably sell "well", since Mac is an untouched market, where Windows LW has to be pretty filled up w.r.t. LW owners buying TAFA, I'd think.
 
Any chance the issue might get re-examined?
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Re: Will there ever be a MAC version?
Reply #8 on: Sep 11th, 2009, 2:26pm
 

The digital monk

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Actually, yes.  The way it's playing out is that there are enough new features desired for v2.0 that it will need a ground up rewrite anyway -- which means that porting difficulty is basically irrelevant.  I've recently been playing with Qt, which is a cross-platform GUI and system library, and which has recently changed licensing models so that it won't destroy any profits I might make.  So I'm thinkin' that TAFA 2.0 will be Qt-based, which should let me provide skinning, which lots of people seem to want -- for some reason, my engineer-inspired graphics are jarring to more artistically minded people  Grin
 
Open questions remain, however:

  • What object file formats are needed?  I currently support LWO and OBJ, which should work almost anywhere.  I was planning to add FBX support on the Windows side because that would pick up Max, Maya, and XSI.  Is there anything similar on the Mac front?
  • What scene/animation/script output file formats would I need to support?  Currently I output a variety of specialized file formats, including at least one simple text format that could be parsed by scripts and used in any scriptable animation suite.  FBX should also help this on the Windows side, but I'm not sure about the Mac side.
  • What audio/video file formats would I need to support?  Currently, I only support PCM encoded WAV files, because I need frame accurate scrubbing.  I'm guessing that Mac support would force Quicktime to the front, at least for that platform.
  • (For the programmers) What API can I use for extremely low latency, preferably cross platform audio playback?  I must be able to randomly seek in an audio stream with high temporal precision and sub millisecond latency.  I'm using DirectSound at a very low level on the Windows side.  I would assume that similar things exist on the Mac side, but I haven't seen any cross platform libraries that can work this way (unless SDL has a sound component -- guess I should go look again).

 
Aaaaannnd there's always the issue of getting enough time together and enough forward mental inertia to do it.  Always the excuse, I know, but the underlying issues haven't gotten better.  But who knows -- maybe if I just get started on something so I can see it work, it'll start flowing again.
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